abyssdressing | Important Discussion Time.

Entry tags:

!administrative: announcement

Important Discussion Time.

It has been brought to my attention that some of our players have been having issues in being dragged into things they don't wish to take part in. To keep this place fun for all, I would like to remind everyone that to involve other players in a fight or scene without their consent is godmoding, which is clearly stated to be against the community rules. If you are uncertain if something you plan to/are doing with a character is godmoding, refer to this definition. When in doubt: Ask the person you intend to thread with.

Please remember that not everyone is comfortable playing every kind of thread or with every type of character: You are not obligated to reply to a post or comment that makes you, as a player, uncomfortable. Everyone should feel free to post without the worry that they may end up negatively affecting their character.

Before replying to posts, it would be good to consider the following; the type or age of the character to which you are replying, the consequences of interacting with that particular character, and most importantly, the feelings of the player behind the character. We're all here to have fun, and while sometimes it's disappointing to not get the reaction you want from people, keep in mind that not everyone wants certain characters/situations forced upon them.

Perhaps to avoid such issues in the future, we can regularly have a discussion post like this or if preferred, an OOC community. On that note, you are welcome and encouraged to use this post to state your opinion on how things are going in

abyssdressing. Not everyone is going to agree with things said, so do keep it civil. If there is something you would prefer to discuss in private, I can always be reached through PMs.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

This.

Also in the spirit of things, I would like to add my own two cents. Keep in mind that this has no impact on the mods or the community itself, it is just my personal thoughts on the subject(s).

Firstly, I would like to EPICALLY reiterate the second point made in this post. Sometimes people just aren't interested, and it is their prerogative to post or not. It's entirely possible that they don't like the idea, they don't like your character, or maybe they just don't feel like playing the day it was posted. It's not a personal attack if someone doesn't reply to your post/your comments, the post/comment itself likely just doesn't appeal to the player/the player's muses. And I agree wholeheartedly to the statement of "it sucks", but that's life. Refer to the saying "Life sucks and then you die", plzkthx.

Secondly, my biggest pet peeve is the term "AU". It means Alternate Universe, for those of you unaware (I promise I'm not patronizing anyone, I'm just a snarky bitch). This, however, is not an excuse to be out of character with someone. I know that one of the core values of this community is for everyone to have fun and it can also be a place to try your hand at a character you've never written, but if you don't think you can handle a canon version of the character, an AU should not be your excuse to write them incorrectly. If the Alternate Universe you have schemed up in your head is so starkly different from the canon that, say... Luke no longer behaves like Luke? You may want to rethink your AU. If it gets to the point that their core character traits are sacrificed to your ideas, then it is no longer the character but an Original Character, and I believe it was already brought up that OCs were not accepted here.

Finally, and I should be done yammering now, I am completely behind the concept of an Out of Character community. It could be fun, and I think it would be highly beneficial in the sense that it would give players a place to publicly express issues they may have. Beyond that, I would like to suggest, if players are comfortable, a contact list! Seeing as it was mentioned that if you're not sure if what you post will be godmoding you should ask the person you intend to thread with, we should all have a way to contact one another. I know that there is always Private Messages on Livejournal itself, but I for one am ridiculously scatterbrained and don't always know I've received a message (particularly not with LJ notifications being as failget as they are today). 8Db

/tl;dr from the Token Bitch

Edited 2009-02-26 06:59 (UTC)

B-baaaaaw. Chibet will be sad if he can't exist anymore. ;~; Not that I guess he deserves to... not only is he from an AU, he's not even even technically Luke |D; eeehg... *goes to die* Guess I'm not really following the rules...

With the first point, people deciding to drag other players into fights without asking them (or predetermining, "Hey, we're going to go attack this person! :D" without asking if they're alright with it) is also something that could make someone decide not to post with a certain character. For instance, knowing that, if I were to post with this Asch, he'd probably get jumped, attacked, or dragged into a fight that I wouldn't even know about if it weren't for the fact that I read through other people's threads has turned me off from doing any posts with him, period. It's one thing for someone to come up and argue with him; he can bitch right back and belittle people with words just fine. But an attack is something entirely different, particularly when every single character that seems to do these "we gonna go attack so-and-so" without consent of so-and-so's player happens to be a godmoddy character who "omg you can't touch I so strong" or instaheals. It doesn't exactly encourage people to post, to reply to those characters, or to interact with them in any way.

For that matter, what happened to making weaknesses for your characters? Vampires are, I'm sorry to say, not all-powerful or super-special (and, quite honestly, are rather sickening by now in my opinion). The fact that they're all being played as such is extremely off-putting and is a direct contributor to why I, at least, haven't been around as much. They're played as godmods and they drag anyone and everyone into things, whether they want it or not.

And this leads me into a very important reiteration of "stop and think a moment before replying to someone's post." If the character who posted seems like one who maybe the player won't want certain sorts of characters involved with, ask them first. For instance, my

onwingsofflame. He's a seven-year-old kid who's easily frightened and just wants to be with his older brother again. I also specifically requested to please keep overly-cruel characters away from him when I first introduced him, and I suppose that maybe it's my own fault for not reiterating this on all of his posts and for not also mentioning, "please try to keep the squick-ish characters away, as well." Regardless, he's seven, I kind of expected some discretion to be used in responses to him. Furthermore, if someone's character responds unfavorably to the point of it pretty much being obvious that the character doesn't want to be anywhere near that situation (or to the point where it's obvious that the player does not wish to have the character in that situation), it'd be nice for issues to not be pressed any further from there. As it is, just jumping into threads with certain characters when your character has quirks that could set off any number of negative reactions is something that everyone should be careful of. Particularly since some characters may react in a way that will then get the player yelled at for "being insensitive to the character who came to talk to them" (when really, the original accusation is often insensitive to the character reacting to it, as well as to the player).

I'm middle-of-the-road on if we get an OOC community or not. It's up to how many people say they'd like to have it.

Edited 2009-02-26 20:22 (UTC)

I think somewhere in that statement, it's directed to a certain redhead individual. It might've been because of Nebby's recent activity, but just because he comes up with elaborate ideas it doesn't mean he will act upon it.

I haven't strike Scion with Nebby after that one time and I haven't had plans of attacking with Nebby since.

And...of course they would act like so because that's what the character themselves believes. I gave Nebby weaknesses but he's also a character who doesn't really have anything to lose and will go all out. He's a character that absolutely believes he is all powerful. I mean unless you meant how they post, then nevermind lol

Sorry, these sort of issues makes me paranoid and go back to

ringthedead since these sort of characters seem to go through these sort cycles constantly.

'Kay I'm not Josie so I can't ...really account for everything said and blahblahblah, but it's not just Nebby!Luke. It was in part the Nebilims that started the issue, as they were plotting to attack

fononfailure and her helpless child (which, seeing as they're as good as married, also involves

scionofhispower). Whether this was a baseless threat between crazies or not nobody was really sure of, but we figured it was a good time to remind people of the issues some of us have been having with god-modding. This just happened to be what finally spurred the post being made.

And by all means, Nebby!Luke and replica!Nebilim are awesome. We need some antagonistic crazies up in this joint. It makes the dressing room a little more lively, gives it a little plot and all. The only point that I think is trying to be conveyed here is to please be clear that your crazy is crazy and likely going to attack people. It's kind of like the NWS tags-- maybe this should be a post to spur a "fighting!" tag or something. As a general rule it's fairly obvious, but not everyone is aware of what they're getting themselves into so it may not be a bad idea. What is mostly trying to be dissuaded is posting to a pre-existing post in an antagonistic manner without prior consent of the player in question. 'Cause sometimes that's just not cool. :|

...♥ ilutaisa.

Well, at the moment part of what's keeping me from posting with him is the Nebby duo, yes, because Luke, Asch, and Aidan were specifically named with them. However, Nebilim!Luke does have weaknesses and can be stopped, at least (and the one fight between him and my Asch was one we decided on together), whereas there have been others who have wanted to physically strike Asch without even consulting me on it. And I've noticed that, every single time it happens, it's someone who's character "can't be defeated" (which, quite honestly, I have to laugh at, since Asch could erase their existence with hyperresonance, but if I were to use that as his defense against characters who are played like that, I'd get yelled at for it; nevermind that Abyss has two canonical extreme godmods: Asch and original!Ion. Luke, Sync, replica Ion, Florian... they've all got high portions of that godmod power going too, of course. Hell, if it's a Luke from after Asch's death, he has the super godmod power for a second-order hyperresonance that means you can't use big-bad-super-special fonic artes against him, because he can nullify them. And that's not even getting into the supreme godmod that Lorelei could be).

But I digress. The thing is that, when a character is "being hunted" without the player's consent, unless they went in and read through all of the comments on everyone's posts (and, quite honestly, there's some posts that even I won't read, in spite of the fact that I try to read all of the, because they're just really not my cup of tea in some way or another), they wouldn't even know about it. So they might reply to a post and get into a fight right away that they didn't even know was coming, or they might make a post for their character and suddenly get jumped/attacked/your word of choice here... and have no idea why. It's... really unfair to people and it certainly doesn't encourage someone to actively play their characters.

But, the thing is, there have been (and are) characters here that you can't damage in any way, no matter how powerful, quick, well-trained, or just plain good your character is in a fight. Even if you manage to land a hit on them, and they instaheal! You move to strike them, and "nope, superfast so-and-so is superfast!" And unfortunately, even with doing absolutely nothing, Asch manages to get targeted by people, and the only reason I know about it - and thus continue to avoid using him - is because I've looked through as many posts as I can. It's simply not fair to expect every single person to do that, and some may not be comfortable with certain characters being targeted.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUT anyway, I go on-and-on (and this is because I'm sleepy and have a terrible headache, so I get rambly), while the latest bit with the Nebilim-types has certainly spawned me not using Asch again, it's really just the latest instance of planned attacks against a character without the player of that character being consulted.

:/ Well you know how I work. And honestly...seeing as I have yours and Sol's SN on AIM, I would have ask if I had planned something. What was being talked about in that thread, least on my part, whatever Nebby was spurting in that thread was what it is. Just him blabbing because he's jealous. So I'd say this was a misunderstanding. He talked threats but I myself, never planned to do anything and figure I wouldn't bother pinging people if I wasn't going to execute his crazy ideas.

I'm sorry if people are making it difficult for you to post with Asch though. All I can really say is, if it turns into that you do have the option to just stop responding to the person.

And if this just continues to pop up with everyone, then people should consider NOT making such controversial characters :| Because no matter what, I feel like this issue will continue to pop up regardless.

Mm, the thing is, I have had instances where he's gotten attacked without me knowing it was going to happen. It's not a matter of "don't make controversial characters," but a matter of making sure that someone they'd be going after is informed that they're a target. Because, yes, while I know you would actually message me and ask, "Hey, is it alright if..." I also know from experience that not everyone does give that courtesy and just jumps on in on someone who's completely unsuspecting. Which is the whole point of this: people need to ask before involving someone else's character in things like that. That'd, quite honestly, prevent the issue from ever coming up.

And while people have the option to stop responding, the attacker also has the capacity to contact the victim first or the option to not respond in the first place if they were unsure of how it would be received. Plus, at times, it gets pressed, and then people complain when threads a player was uncomfortable with get dropped. Which is all a situation that could be avoided by a simple, "Hey, is it alright if..." message.

Edited 2009-02-26 23:05 (UTC)

"he has the super godmod power for a second-order hyperresonance that means you can't use big-bad-super-special fonic artes against him, because he can nullify them. And that's not even getting into the supreme godmod that Lorelei could be."

That is cuz Asch and Luke + Lorelei arez teh shiiiiit \o/ <3

Making weaknesses! A++. The one thing I'd like to add to the line of making weaknesses is the opposite end of the spectrum-- weaknesses are always a good thing, they add dimension to otherwise boring characters and all, but there is a such thing as too much weakness! If all a character does is whine about their tortured past to people, they're no better off than someone with no dimension at all. Let's try to tone down the emoemoemo?

And here's me again harping on my AU thing. Why don't we try something new with the dressing room? There are so many AUs here to begin with, it's starting to look like a "Tales of the Abyss themed" dressing room more than a Tales of the Abyss dressing room. Why not have everyone play at least one canon rendition of a character? For starters, it's a long-ass game, you can pull the character from anywhere to keep every Luke or every Asch or every [insert character here] being pulled from the same point in the storyline, and I think it'd shock some new life into the game that we haven't seen in a long time. Again, I'm not a mod so my opinion is, as previously state, just an opinion, but it's a thought.

Before posting this, did you IM or PM the people in question? Trying to clear things up behind the scenes would have eliminated the need for this entire post.

Also, those who are pointing things out, did you attempt to contact the people whose behavior is in question? Did you PM or IM them saying "Hey, this looks kinda godmoddy, let's work on that" or "I'm sorry, but I'm uncomfortable with how this is going, so I'm not going to comment further on that thread"? You'd be amazed how people will listen and respond if you just communicate how you feel.

Has anyone attempted to communicate, or are we all bitching and assuming the poor players know and are ignoring it? If no one communicates with the players in question, then those players have no idea. They're having fun and they think everything's okay.

In fact of weaknesses, has anyone asked? I know my characters have tons of weaknesses I've revealed. If anyone has forgotten a character's weakness, I doubt it's that the player hasn't revealed it or it doesn't exist, but rather it's been forgotten but the person playing the character remembers. If you say something like "Oh hey, this is kind of godmoddy. It's like your character doesn't have any weaknesses!" then I bet the other person will probably respond with weaknesses and ways to exploit them for true, maximum fun. I can comment with one particular way to hurt, maim, torture, and kill one of my characters. And it's all using things I've revealed. The other people here can respond the same.

On the issue of OOC, well, are we really going to bitch about that? Everyone here has a character that makes canon cringe and hate. Everyone. Go ahead and tell me your character is totally in character. Go ahead and tell me that even your AU still has character traits. Or are we going to go do what

talesofdressing did? Ignore the whole "It's just a roleplay and we're just having fun" thing and tell people they have to play a character a certain way or put a stop to certain characters? Many of us came over here because we just wanted to have fun and not feel singled out for doing so. Wasn't this what this community was made for?

Or, how about we communicate with each other instead of dumping it on Sol and having her sort it out? I've always hated the idea that if something is bugging you about one person you don't go to them and tell them to knock it off, but you go over their heads to the higher ups. I've seen it at work, and I hate it. It feels childish, very "I'm gonna tattle on you and then you'll stop." When did we stop talking? When did the idea of "try to get it sorted out between the people in question, and if that doesn't work, then go to the higher ups" get thrown to the wayside? We can be mature people. We can form clear, polite, and mature ways of saying "stop that." We can take the strain off Sol and make this group an even tighter community, one that feels like we can communicate freely and welcome new people in to communicate with everyone, both for compliments and concerns. And then we can go back to having fun.

Because isn't having fun what we're here for?

About communicating with each other, that's what this post is for. Some people are afraid to poke another player in private out of the blue and say "Hey, what you're doing is bugging me." or such. Not everyone really knows everybody else here, so I can't blame them for preferring a more open setting to talk about things. Directly confronting someone has a strong possibility of backfiring when there is no one to play referee. Also, that is part of my job as moderator to help keep things running smoothly. I admit to probably being too easy-going, as I really wasn't aware until just recently that there was a problem to begin with.

This post isn't intended to target any one instance, or even two or three, but to address everything and get feedback would be beneficial in the long run to all players in the community.

If people start to say others are doing it wrong and have to change how they're playing, I'll say it right now: that isn't the case unless a person is breaking the rules. But at the same time, people might have preferences in the kind of characters they thread with. They can't be faulted for that, just as people have certain kinds of characters they like to play.

Sorry for such a short and disjointed reply. My icon is a very good representation on the state of my mind just now.

Direct confrontation can backfire, yes. That's not what I'm talking about, and if it does backfire, we're all mature enough to say "okay, this isn't working" and go to you next. I'm talking about poking a player that you're currently threading with and saying "Hey, let's talk." Not saying "knock it off" but saying "hey, this is bugging me, let's work it out." Josie saying she doesn't want certain types playing with the new bitty Luke... if things take a sour turn, it's possible to PM the player with an apology. "Hey, I'm sorry, but I'm not comfortable with how this is going." Nine times out of ten that will stop the thread. Problem fixed. There's a possibility the person might try to work with you so the thread continues but it's within a comfort zone. Problem fixed. I used to play in a group where someone wasn't comfortable with porn. One of my characters was romantically involved with that player. The player told me and we agreed to fade to black. We communicated and stayed within the player's comfort zone. I used to have a huge problem with rape scenes because during the time they were incredibly triggering for me. I told people and we compromised. They're not as bad now, but whenever it does get triggering, I communicate. But I didn't go to the mod about it, and neither did the other person. We took care of it ourselves.

An apology on the part of the person who is being attacked should not be necessary. When your character is causing the problem, you should be apologizing for the issue you've caused. Why do you think I had to intervene? Because your character smeared blood on a sandwich for a seven year old. How the hell was she even supposed to respond to that?

...Besides, if rape is so triggering for you, why is it in half of your character's overly tortured pasts?

An apology for stopping a thread. Or am I the only one who feels bad if she has to stop a thread because she's not comfortable? If she didn't want to apologize, just simply PMing or IMing me and saying "hey, I don't feel comfortable with this, I'm stopping the thread" is enough. And obviously you aren't paying attention, because you would see this character is batshit, lost in her own world, been told plenty of lies that she believed, and actually believes she was doing what he wanted. Not to mention when she isn't low on blood she would be an antagonist here because for the most part, she hates vampires and wants to kill them, but she has no reason to believe what she hears is real. Which is something I've noticed, all the characters here take the whole "not in your world" thing too easily. Being shown duplicates can, yes, show things are different. But that does not equal in a different world, especially given how Abyss has replicas.

Learn to read. "They're not as bad now, but whenever it does get triggering, I communicate." From the previous post. Maybe it's unhealthy, but I've put a lid on that panic. Or do you not remember me in the Borders parking lot, freaking because I was afraid that Javier may be raping me because I was afraid of saying no? That's a situation I'm not comfortable with. And you know what, unless the character is actively dealing with that situation, it's just a summary. It's not actively being played out in front of my eyes.

It still shouldn't be necessary if you are causing a character to be uncomfortable. I would have thought that a kid screaming and telling a person No would be enough, but if you have to be told you're causing problems despite that, maybe you ought to let people reply to your posts and stop forcing yourself onto them. And it's a dressing room. Having people sitting around freaking the hell out about "oh god I'm not in my world anymore noes what do I do?! D:" all the time would be boring. We're looking to have fun, not constant drama.

Welcome to the Real World, sweetheart. Situations you aren't comfortable with are gonna show up a lot. That's why posts like these are made in places where everyone is meant to have fun-- because if it's not brought up on a larger scale than personal messages, the issue could happen again and again and again.

Except that I had no idea if Josie wanted me to stop, or if she was okay with it? Seriously, how many times have we set up situations where we wanted a certain level of trauma to happen and then set it up that someone comes in and rescues them? It happens. I had no idea the thread would go that way, so it wasn't like I went in there expecting to torment a kid. She made the sandwich first, remember? If Josie had PMed or IMed me then that she didn't like how she spread blood on it, do you think we'd be having this conversation?

And again, learn to read. I never said "have people constantly freak about not being in their world." Let me repost again.

but she has no reason to believe what she hears is real. Which is something I've noticed, all the characters here take the whole "not in your world" thing too easily. Being shown duplicates can, yes, show things are different. But that does not equal in a different world, especially given how Abyss has replicas.

Why should every character that comes here instantly believe it's real? Why can't people believe it's an elaborate hoax, or that it's all a lie? Too many people just accept it's a different world too easily. They don't do research into if it's true. They don't hold onto a belief that everyone's replicas. It's like another RP I was in. Everyone instantly trusted this one character because he said he was safe, and since people knew the canon, the characters believed it. My character was suspicious, because while I had read the canon, my character hadn't. We let the characters believe because we know it's true. We don't have enough people that hold onto the belief that it's a lie, or even that it's dream.

Well, it was stated before with the little Luke that he's delicate and for those who might scare him to keep their distance. But I agree that should another problem arise, players would do well to consider PMing the person they're threading with.

I'm sure we all can learn that it's okay to talk to one another. Now that everything is hopefully a bit more clearer, we can all get back to having fun and just enjoying ourselves.

I hadn't considered it would go that way, and I forgot about that when it did. If I had been told this wasn't Josie wanting to do a little torture to a character (which she's done before) but rather something she didn't want to do, I would have stopped or changed my comment.

I hope we do talk now. Things suck when we don't.

No IMs or PMs were sent because it has been a community-wide issue. The god-modding rule was being violated, so both moderators (being

solerika and

artes) talked it over and the post was made. There may have been specific issues at hand, specific characters in mind, but it is their community, so I believe that if they deem a "by the way, follow the rules" post necessary you have no right to dispute that. The post also very specifically said "leave your opinions here!" which is why opinions were left. The communication is being made here, in an easy reminder for all players to follow the rules. It's not just you-- the initial problem was actually the Nebilim characters.

Just to throw it out there again; this post wasn't made because of you. You were included in mention, simply because Vampires are a difficult character-type to look at in a fair way to everyone and the majority of the vampire population is yours. My own personal dislike of them aside, they are a generally difficult "race" to handle in an otherwise somewhat normal setting.

Pardon my bluntness, but if you took a look at the people that play canons, they tend to be the ones that have problems with AUs. Probably because if you play a character that has strict guidelines to follow, you have a lot more to conform to, as far as characterization goes. Countless Alternate Universe plots in which [x] character has a Tortured Past or [x] character is genderbent tend to blur together after a while, and it's fairly easy to lose touch with the core character values. To err is human, but this post stands as a reminder to try a little harder.

And like I mentioned earlier, this post is the communication. Rather than talk to every single person as a way to remind each player that we have had issues with god-modding, a public post was made as a reminder. Nothing was dumped on anyone; Sol has her own opinion and typed up this post all on her own. The issue was brought up by myself and the other moderator, because when characters like a frightened seven year old are thoughtlessly forced into a thread with a character ignorant to everything but her own issues, something needs to be done. Additionally, the post with both Nebilims involved characters being targeted without the players' consent. It was a general consensus to make a public post so everyone could express their personal thoughts on the community. With the absence of an out of character community in which to do so, this was the best way. Additionally, with Sol and Josie the only moderators, a lot of people don't feel it is their place to piss in other people's cheerios. So the issue is presented to a moderator, which is what a moderator is there for, and the issue is brought up in a manner everyone can see and understand.

Having fun is what we're here for. That's why when an issue was community-wide, it was brought up with the whole community. That way no one was singled-out, no one felt attacked, and it served as a reminder to everyone that there are still rules to be followed.

An OOC community will not help things. We need to learn to put our big girl panties on and directly communicate with the people (hey, look there, in this comment and the previous I never said I was being singled out. I used myself as an example. For the most part, I used a plural, as I realize I'm part of the problem but only part) involved. If Josie had PMed or IMed me and said "Hey, sorry, I can't continue this thread," I would have understood. If I hadn't, that's grounds to go to a moderator. Every little thing doesn't have to go to a mod. Only when you can't work things out between the two of you is when you need to go further up. Would you go to the district manager if someone was being a little spacey headed? It's far more effective to go up to the person and ask if something is wrong, and if that doesn't change things, go to the supervisor. This is similar. We're doing posts like these instead of practicing what we preach. We're not communicating. Instead, we're putting out posts like these and saying we need to communicate instead of actually doing so.

Weaknesses... hell, I've got a vampire you can knock out, put into an east facing room he hasn't been invited into with the curtains drawn, and watch him bleed to the point he can't get out and get away from what will turn him into ashes.

Josie is a moderator, Sol agreed something needed to be done. I think that when both moderators agree to take action, neither you nor myself have a place in saying "No, wait, we should give everyone special treatment and sugar-coat the fact that they've caused problems and give them therapy on how to fix it!".

The post serves to inform people that if you are going to do something that can seriously affect another character without their consent, also known as god-modding, they need to inform the player they are playing with first. The issue with communication is there, so this post is bringing it to the attention of everyone as a whole. That way no one feels attacked. It's the most civil way to handle things.

You also have a character that completely ignores everything but her own problems. You've also got a character that rapes. Wasn't that triggering for you? What's the point in acting out something that is so horrible to you? Keep in mind I didn't bring up the weaknesses bit. It's always been something that kind of makes me go "meh", but I tend to avoid things I don't enjoy.

Yeah, Josie's a mod. Which goes double for her to communicate first. It's not like I've turned PMs off. Hell, she could have stopped responding and pretended the thread never happened. People do that.

Yeah, I do. Which can make her an antagonist considering when she gets stronger she'll want to kill people because she's fucking batshit. I have a character that I mentioned him attacking Wingy to Kris and she gave me the go ahead. He got hurt, which made me happy. He was poisoned and Wingy hurt him, so he had to go get some real blood to actually heal. You'd be amazed how therapeutic watching a rapist get his can be. And considering the situation wasn't her afraid to say no but rather was her fighting back, it was rather nice.

Since you're so insistent on bashing Josie as well, I think I'll wait until she's here to defend herself before I waste my time arguing with a child.

Saying Josie should have communicated with me = bashing. I love your leaps of logic.

This isn't about logic.

You might want to rephrase that, because that is a lead in to every single "I can see the lack of logic on your side" comment I can think of.

PFFFFF

Oh Asch; you and your lines. I wanted to just bitch-slap that ho during that part of the game. Drag him out if I had to.

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